Ria Tobaccowala grew up in a vibrant neighborhood on the south side of Chicago, surrounded by a multicultural community that fostered her love for storytelling. Her name, meaning "waterfalls," inspired her to seek a sense of flow and trust in life, like cascading waters. The conversation delved into Ria's experiences of feeling like an outsider for the first time in high school when a photography assignment led to a misunderstanding with law enforcement and event that pushed her to reevaluate her relationship with creative expression.
Ria Tobaccowala, a former Google employee turned screenwriter and director. Ria shared her journey of self-discovery, starting from her childhood in Chicago to her experiences as a primary caregiver for a loved one. We delved into how she navigated being an outsider after a traumatic incident in high school involving photography and law enforcement. Ria also discussed her path to rediscovering her passion for storytelling and filmmaking, despite facing challenges and self-doubt. Through therapy, Ria learned to be kinder to herself, embrace the present moment, and trust in the flow of life, much like a soothing waterfall, as her name suggests. The episode highlighted the importance of self-exploration, resilience, and finding peace in one's journey of understanding oneself.
Transitioning from a successful career at Google to becoming a primary caregiver for a loved one, Ria faced life-altering decisions that prompted her to reexamine her priorities and aspirations. Through therapy, she discovered the importance of self-care, self-compassion, and being present in the moment. Ria's journey of self-discovery and resilience serves as a testament to the power of introspection, growth, and embracing one's true identity. As she continues to navigate the waters of life, Ria strives to embody the essence of a waterfall, flowing with grace and trust in the journey ahead.
Join us for the next episode of Sense of Self as we explore more stories of self-discovery and personal growth. Thank you for listening.
Gowri: Welcome to Sense of Self, a podcast about the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and what happens when they stop working. I'm your host, Dr. Gowri Aragam.
Ria: I would always get frustrated with my therapist about the idea of the narratives that we're telling ourself. And she'd be like, Ria, that's a narrative. I'm like, then what's the truth? Because I'm telling myself this. Then what is the truth?
Gowri: In today's episode, I talk with Ria Tobaccowala. Ria is a former Google employee turned writer and filmmaker. While at Google, Ria nurtured her love of storytelling by developing content partnerships with the New York Times and NBC, and produced the 2015 YouTube interview with President Barack Obama. Ria's short films have premiered at festivals around the world, including the Tribeca Film Festival, and she most recently wrote for an upcoming Apple TV series. During our conversation, we talk about how Ria learned what it meant to be an outsider, an experience she captured in her article for New York magazine titled The Patriot Act and Me. We also talk about how becoming a primary caregiver to a loved one changed the course of her career, as well as her relationship with herself. It's important to note that these discussions do not constitute mental health care. Each guest has given their consent to participate, has had full control over what aspects of their journey were shared, and either currently engages in therapy or has done so in the past. Would you mind sharing with us your full name and where you grew up?
Ria: Hi, my name is Ria Tobaccowala, and I grew up in Hite Park, which is a neighborhood on the south side of Chicago. So I grew up right on the lake of Lake Michigan and near the University of Chicago campus. So I love growing up there. It was like a fun neighborhood to be in.
Gowri: Do you know what inspired your name?
Ria: Yeah, so my parents, they were looking for a baby name, and they were looking through a book that my mom had, I think, picked up at one of the bookstores in our neighborhood. And the book, my mom found, it said that the name Maria means waterfalls. And I think she also found that to be kind of cool and soothing. So that's where the name came from. I'm the firstborn of my generation in our family. I'm also the first grandchild. And I am also the first US citizen. in my family as well. So I'm a lot of firsts.
Gowri: You said you were the oldest, the first. How many siblings do you have?
Ria: I have one younger sister. We've always got along. We have a very, very good relationship. We even lived together for a few years. And everyone, when I was like, oh, I live with my younger sister, they're like, are you crazy? And I'm like, why would I be crazy? This is so fun. You know, it's like we never thought we would get to live together after I went to college. And then we got to kind of be young adults learning the ways of New York City together. So it was a very special time.
Gowri: You mentioned that you had fun growing up in Chicago where you did. Can you tell us a bit about what that was like?
Ria: Yeah. So I mean, all the kids that I grew up with, like most of us went to the same school from kindergarten to 12th grade. So there was that kind of always, you know, having other kids around was kind of and we lived right next to a park. And so we would always kind of be having fun. And, you know, my parents, my dad loves to swim. So swimming pool together and stuff. I just think there was like we had a lot of activities and we got into sports and soccer. And then we had to watch our piano lessons, which we didn't love as much, but we still, you know, it was fun. And we see our grandparents a lot too, who come visit from India and things like that. So it just felt like, I don't know, we had like a very full childhood with a lot of love and just a lot of activities and opportunities to express ourselves.
Gowri: just a very ideal sort of like quintessential American childhood in some ways is what I picture.
Ria: Yeah, I think I would agree to all of that.
Gowri: It reminded me of what you said that you were the first US citizen in your family. And I was just curious, you brought that up, sort of what did that mean to your family? If anything, what did you think it meant to your family for you to be the first?
Ria: Well, you know, what's kind of nice is my dad took a lot of home videos when we were a kid. So while I don't have this memory, I saw a video of myself, like as a four-year-old, being aware that I was from, like, that I was Asian. Like I had a brown doll, like kind of, you know. Indian looking doll. And I'm saying to my dad, this is Rhea Dali. And you know, she's from Asia. So I'm sure I had this like awareness of it. But I think in the context of life, I don't think you're like, Oh, cool. You know, I'm, I'm from this place where my family's from this place, but the larger context of world politics, I don't think I knew, knew much. And I think, you know, at some point if we want to talk about it, I definitely had my kind of political coming of age when I was in high school and kind of understood what it meant to be, you know, the first American in my family or to be a citizen and what that kind of provides or doesn't provide. So I just remember, I mean, I remember being American, I remember my parents had sometimes different rules than some of my friends' parents, and maybe sometimes I didn't understand it, although now I have a lot more perspective. I grew up in a very multicultural community, and also with people from a lot of different places. Our school used to do something called the Rites of May. And it was this festival for kids from around the world or their parents from around the world. And it was just really cool. I remember there being pride to like, oh, cool, you know, my parents are at the India booth and someone else's parents are at, you know, the China booth or the Italy booth and just a lot of like love and appreciation for culture.
Gowri: So some part of you had that sense of, okay, like we have all these different people around us and like, this is who I am, this is who I am. And I'm wondering whether it was that four-year-old Rhea or, you know, a bit later, what it meant to you to sort of be Indian in that context.
Ria: I would say like for me, So I don't speak Hindi, which I would say to my parents, why didn't you teach us? Like, we would be so much cooler if we spoke Hindi. And, you know, anytime we go and visit our grandparents in India, we feel so out of it. And we are American, but it would be cooler if an American, we could speak the language that, you know, our family speaks and things like that. So that was, for me, always from the get-go, something that kind of I don't want to say made me lean away from my Indian identity, but made it harder for me to have a natural connection. My parents are not, you know, they grew up with different types of faith. And so, you know, my father, his parents had a love marriage in the forties. And so it was like, I believe it was like around right after partition or something along that, or the early fifties, my paternal grandfather was Muslim and my paternal grandmother was Hindu. And so they got married in a time when, you know, the tension between Muslim and Hindu households and cultures and religions was very tense, but they found love, which I think is a very beautiful thing. And my parents also had a love marriage, which was wonderful. They were neighbors and they met when they were, I believe, 11. So we grew up in a house that was very welcoming to different religions and cultures, and we would travel a lot. And so I didn't really have like a strong religious thing. We didn't have connection to language. So for us, our connection to the culture was very much And then we loved Bollywood movies, even though, like, when we were kids, they didn't have subtitles. So we'd be in India, and we would, like, whisper to my mom and my grandma, like, what are they saying? What are they saying? So I think that was our way of connecting. And I think, speaking of my grandparents, they were also, like, truly our biggest connection to our culture. Like, when I think about India, I just think of my grandparents. And that, for me, is, like, what viscerally feels like a sense of home and a sense of identity. less, less, I guess, a country or anything like that. I've always felt, you know, because, you know, sometimes people don't talk about their grandparents very much. At least my observations are I had incredibly progressive grandparents. Like my grandmother right now, she's 86 and she is a director of a school. She has a PhD and my grandfather wanted her to work. He wanted her to get a PhD. He wanted her to be able to live a full life of her own making. And I think that was incredibly progressive for a man of his time. And my other grandfather and my other grandmother, they were also, I mean, my grandmother was a lawyer. She was in the Asian games. She, you know, she also was working and had a very equal relationship with my grandfather. And, you know, they were the ones who post-partition time decided, you know, to get married. So I would like to say, actually, I think I was raised by a lot of brave people. I don't think we think about bravery that our families have had in, you know, in these types of ways, but I think it's pretty, pretty cool. And yeah, a trait I'm very proud of in my family is their bravery.
Gowri: Well, when I think of what you've just described to me in terms of how you grew up and your family, where you came from, who you came from. as a child, as even maybe in high school or, you know, in that time period where you were living with your family and being surrounded by, you know, that kind of acceptance. Your parents had to accept one another. Your grandparents had to accept one another. You accepted them. You were raised with this kind of sense of acceptance of different cultures, some degree acceptance of yourself, right? And how you wanted to be Indian. And that's really special. And I think what comes to mind is you wrote it. There's just stark contrast between what you've just described there and the piece that you wrote for the cut about what happened to you when you were in high school. And so I was going to ask you, you know, if you wouldn't mind sharing a bit about kind of how you got into photography and what role photography played in your life at that time.
Ria: I grew up a huge fan of photography and filmmaking. It was just something innate, an innate curiosity, I guess. And so my dad recorded home videos and so he always had a camcorder or a camera. And so I would always be like jumping to use it or asking, dad, I want to turn, I want to turn. And so, um, being generous with what probably was a very expensive camera to him at the time, he would let me play with his cameras, both his still camera and his video camera. And so I just was always really having fun using cameras. And then when I went to high school, my school had a really lovely arts program and there was an intro to photography class. And I thought it was so cool because they were going to teach you how to use like a 35 millimeter, you know, camera with actual film that you would then develop in the school's darkroom. And, and to me, that was like, this is amazing. So I remember being so excited to go to, um, to that class and, you know, my photography teacher ended up being kind of one of my favorite people at school and someone who I still I'm in touch with today, which is really awesome. My dad actually let me use his old camera, which is as old as I am. And I would go around and take that to different places based on the assignment.
Gowri: Do you remember what you enjoyed so much about it?
Ria: For me, I loved it because it let me kind of express the way I saw the world in a way that I wasn't doing through any other medium or through just kind of chit-chatting or whatever it is. So for me, it was very much a form of self-expression.
Gowri: Yeah, no, I can see that. And so I ask because especially when you're at that age, the idea of self-expression is developmentally appropriate. It is the time in life when you're starting to experiment with how to express yourself in whatever manner makes the most sense to you, the most resonates with you, feels most like you, and also makes you feel safe. The kind of self-expression that's going to feel, yeah, feel safe.
Ria: Yeah, look, I'll say one of the scarier places in a high school is the cafeteria during lunch. And I will tell you, I didn't do the Lindsay Lohan mean girls sitting in the bathroom to eat my lunch. But I did many times choose to go to the dark room during lunch because it was my safe space. It was where I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I don't think it was like in any way because of shame or embarrassment. It just I felt safe there and I felt happy there. And you know, this is my time to relax in this busy school day. And I'm like, Okay, I can sit with my friends, eat lunch, which I did a decent amount. But like, there's more times than not, I was like, I'd rather go develop, like, you know, a role of film that I just worked on for the weekend or do something for, you know, the school newspaper or something like that. So it was very much Yeah, it was my hat, I would say it's my safe space in my happy, one of my happy places. In high school,
Gowri: Yeah, no, I that resonates such important context for us discussing what you shared in the article, because I said you were in ninth or 10th grade, you had, you know, you were driving along with your family, right? And you asked your dad to stop the car because you saw something you wanted to photograph.
Ria: Yeah, so I had one of my photography class assignments for that class was abstract objects in nature. I was with my dad and my sister, my sister had a soccer game. And so I went along with tagged along with her with her and my dad. And while she was at the game, or on our way to the game, I saw these electrical towers in a field, like next to a field of like corn or grass or whatever it was. And I'm like, well, nature, abstract object, and something about it looked a little bit like a robot to me. And so I was like, oh, dad, this is cool. Maybe we can come back around this way. I think I found what I needed for my assignment to find an abstract object in nature. Boom. So then he and I came back around, I think while my sister was in the middle of her soccer match. And so, you know, he parked by the side of the road. And yeah, I took just a couple pictures of, you know, an electrical tower and a bunch of, you know, prairie-like grass and some cool clouds in the background. And I was like, oh, like, I feel like these towers feel almost human-like. How cool. And, you know, excited about the next day to go, go work in a dark room. So, that night after we came back from my self-taking pictures, we got a phone call at home from a sheriff from, you know, the county that we were in, asking, you know, what was a girl of Middle Eastern descent in front of a foreign car doing, taking pictures outside a Con Edison plant? And so my mom, who hadn't been with us, had gotten the phone call. And she was like, hold on, what? And she called me and my dad, said, what were you guys doing? I thought you were at a soccer game. What's going on? And we were like, oh, no, I took pictures from my class. And it's an abstract objects class. And I just took a picture of the tower. I didn't take any pictures of any buildings or anything. It was just of this tower. So she explained that to the sheriff, and she also clarified, you know, we're not Middle Eastern, you know, me and my husband are from India, our daughter, she had a school assignment. The sheriff was like, okay, thank you for letting us know, and we appreciate it, have a good night. And so we thought that was, the end of it. And then in the week after that, we have someone who comes, you know, cleaning our apartment once a month. And so she got her to knock at the door of our apartment building. And this guy on the other side said, FBI. And so she was freaking out. She's from Poland. She's also an immigrant. And she's like, is this about me? What did I do? And so she was nervous opening the door. And he's like, who are you? And she's like, oh, you know, I've known the family for a very long time. I'm here cleaning their house. Now, this is in the year 2003. So this is two years after 9-11. He says, I need to come inside. So he came in. He looked in every room. He opened every closet door, every bathroom door. and handed her his card and said, please have this family call me. And so, um, you know, we come home, my mom sees this like card next to the phone. Yeah. And then my mom, you know, was like very nervous, like what the heck's going on here? And she calls, you know, an FBI agent and, um, you know, he kind of explains that they need to investigate further on what my intentions were. And so they had to call my school. They wanted records of my parents' visa status. They wanted to have my teacher talk to my teacher, talk to the principal. And so they did all of that. And my photography teacher kind of read him her own version of the riot act and saying, this is like a child taking a picture in a public area. And this is a first amendment, right? She should be allowed to take a picture. This is racial profiling. You know, fortunately, the FBI had said, okay, we've gotten all the information we need, and we don't want to affect this young girl's life, and so we're gonna close the case, and that was it. this was the first time for me where I felt like an outsider, even though, you know, we've talked about how, like, I was aware that I was Indian American, like, all of that awareness didn't ever make me feel like an outsider in my neighborhood. I felt very included. I felt very American. I felt all of these things. And so for me, this was the first moment where I was like, to certain people, be a difference in terms of who they think I am versus who I believe I am. And that kind of feeling of otherness was very new. It was also tied to something that I really loved, which is photography, which I was like kind of nervous about because I was like, well, you know, how is it that I'm carrying the camera around, but certain people looks like potentially a tool for terrorism?
Gowri: where you said, this is kind of my first time feeling othered. And more importantly, that the way you see yourself is different than how others see you. That can be very disorienting. And then you were introduced to this suddenly much bigger world of, how does this whole country see me? How does law enforcement see me? Who else is making judgments about who I am? Which feel totally ripped from the reality of who I know and believe myself to be. I can only imagine just feeling very knocked off course if something like that were to, you know, if I were to experience something as traumatic as that, which I know a lot of families did at that time, to your point of the timing of it all. Let's relate this even just to your photography. Did you feel like that was something that you could or should continue doing?
Ria: Yeah, I mean, at the time, I remember for a while feeling very uninspired. and feeling a sense of, should I pick up a camera? I did at some point. I did in high school, so it's not like I never picked up a camera again, I think. But I think it created a sense of pause, that kind of hesitation to do something that felt so natural and felt cool and was just art. To have to pause is unfortunate. You know, I think it took me a little bit to get past that and to then, you know, not feel scared to be walking around with a camera.
Gowri: Yeah. What did it take for you to feel less scared?
Ria: Part of it was time. And I also, um, my photography teacher kept me going to like, she was very much like, don't let someone tell you who you are or what you can do. This is America. And, and encouraged me as a photographer. She's like, you're a great photographer. you should keep going. And I don't know, I think also my school community also saw how ridiculous it was when you say, oh, you're a 15-year-old and you took a picture and now the FBI is calling the school. I think for everyone, it was like, wait, what? And so I think having the community kind of rallying behind and be like, this seems like a fluke experience kind of helped me realize like, you know, I didn't do anything wrong.
Gowri: What did your parents say about the situation?
Ria: I think they were both scared. I can imagine, you know, some senses of, like, wanting to protect me and wanting to make sure I don't get hurt. But, you know, they continued to encourage me as well.
Gowri: Does this event have any impact on how you continue to see yourself today or how you understand yourself? On one hand, you know, You're like, OK, well, I'm taking a pause in terms of my self-expression. But then you also mentioned how it was it was a time where it was the first time where you sort of had a different perspective on yourself. And so I'm just curious how and if that's impacted you since then.
Ria: Yeah, I mean, I think I don't carry that. Event with me. In a way that feels like trauma. but I do carry that event with me as a lesson. It did teach me about parts of the country and parts of kind of my place in it, that as I've gotten older, I'm kind of glad I had that lesson in a weird way. Like, it helped me understand a little bit more about, that's why I kind of call it like a political coming of age, because I think at some point you kind of understand what the world is around you in a more real way, not in a read it in a textbook type of way. And so, yeah, I think it's made me a little bit more street smart, I think.
Gowri: You finished high school, you go to college. What role did kind of creative expression play in your life during that part of your life?
Ria:: Yeah, so I went to college, I decided to do photojournalism for the school newspaper. So I did that for a couple of years, but taking pictures on a college campus of sports or going into local things and in the city and stuff, I think I was not feeling that inspired anymore. But I started really enjoying being part of the South Asian dance community and cultural community. So I would put a lot of my expression through that. I didn't grow up with a huge South Asian community, so it was very eye-opening in college. I'm like, oh, there's so many people who look like me. So again, talking about sense of self and sense of identity, I'm like, whoa, what is this? And I was, you know, feeling a kinship as I was growing into myself. There was something within me that was saying, maybe these people can help.
Gowri: What brought you back to being? A creative, like you are now.
Ria: An artist. An artist, yeah. Yes, it was a curvy road. I don't think I knew that I wanted to be a professional artist. So, you know, in college, I was like, I don't know how you make films in this school, so I'm going to stop looking and, you know, maybe I should do something that will help me and help my parents feel like putting all this money in college. was useful. And so I decided to become an economics major. But again, coming out of college after a recession, again, don't know how to do anything other than try to get a job of some sort. And I got very lucky and I got a job at Google. And so I moved to San Francisco, farthest I've been away from home. And I worked at Google for many years. And I absolutely loved my experience. I got to work on helping a variety of different storytellers and content creators. And so I was already starting to feel at work that I'm like, Oh, I think I'd rather be these people that I'm supporting. I often say to people, I felt like I was like the geek squad for storytellers. And, um, I was like, I'm tired of being the geek squad. I want to go be a storyteller. I also went through like some changes in my mid twenties, uh, including having a family member who got very sick. And so I ended up becoming a. caregiver and spending more time away from work and kind of through that experience started reconnecting with myself and thinking about, well, what do I really want to do with my life? Having kind of at a very young age gotten this perspective that life can change very quickly. And so I just, I was like, I think I need, I need to make some changes. And so it took me, I would say another couple years of like soul searching and reading books about finding your purpose and talking to some of my closest friends where I kind of was like, oh, yeah. that film and photography thing. So then that's when I kind of took the leap and I said, if I don't do this now, I'm never going to do it and applied for grad school and got into a program at NYU. I was petrified that I was like, either I'm a terrible artist or I'm just not going to like it. But I'm glad I took the risk because I made a few films and I got this advice once and I was like, I don't like this advice because it felt kind of intense, but I now understand it. But someone said to me, they said, you know, Adria, if there is anything else you feel like you could do with yourself that wasn't being a filmmaker, go do it. Like just go do it. This is a very difficult path. And if there's anything else you want to go do with yourself, just go do it. Don't do this. And now having now gone through the ups and downs of trying to be a filmmaker, I understand that completely. And it just, I don't want to do anything else. So I just keep doing it. finding that motivation, because I think, you know, I think the same for for a variety of different professions, but like, to be an artist, you are your own company, you are an entrepreneur, but you're also having to reflect yourself in a vulnerable way, which I think is also very hard, because there's a lot of rejection as well. And so I just you just really have to have your heart in it and be able to weather the storm. So yeah, that's why I'm still here.
Gowri: You mentioned how you've been doing therapy, you've been in therapy. And I was just curious, what prompted you to go to therapy?
Ria: I didn't really understand what therapy was before I went to therapy and had a lot of friends who had encouraged me. They said, you should go. I love it. It's such a great thing to do. And I think, you know, mental health You know, when I think about like a well-oiled machine, when you think about your body, you go to your doctor for your physical health. But I think mental health is something that we just don't put a lot of time and effort to. And I felt like for me, I had spent so much time transforming parts of my identity and myself. But I was, I don't know, I just, I think I was realizing that, like, I was neglecting myself in a weird way, which is, it's so strange to say, because people are like, wait, you you did all this for yourself. Like, you did this act to find more meaning in your life, yet you're saying you feel like you neglected yourself. And I think a part of it is, you know, anyone who puts a lot of effort in trying to make some big change in their life that is very performative or is professional, like, as much as being an artist is part of my identity and, you know, people can be artists and that's not their profession, I was trying to make being a filmmaker profession and what I did to feed myself. And I think that's a very different way to use your energy. And I think the funny thing is so much of what filmmaking is and storytelling is you're trying to reflect the human condition. But I felt like I had stopped exploring my own human condition. I often hold things down and I keep my own feelings kind of submerged under the water instead of exploring or revealing them. And so I felt that I needed therapy to just give me a space where, you know, in my very busy life, one hour a week was just for me. It's a very rare environment to have, particularly in how fast moving our lives are and how little time we actually give ourselves now to be alone with our thoughts. And so for me, that's why I really, really liked therapy and why I felt like, at least for me, I was like, oh man, I wish I'd done this so many years earlier. I could have, I could have learned some of these tools of self-exploration and making sure to have a deep relationship with myself, which I feel like I had been neglecting for a long time.
Gowri: I'm just curious if you can speak at all to what you felt like you were neglecting about yourself or what you realized through therapy you had been neglecting that you were able to bring more attention to and nurture.
Ria: One of the big ones is because I had been making so many changes in my life. I also grew up with a lot of sports in my life. I felt like I was pushing myself so much. keeping the stakes very high in my own life that I could not fail. I could not take a break. I could not let myself just be. And I think I needed, that was the first thing for me in therapy was like, you need to be nice to yourself. You need to be kinder to yourself. You need to be okay with yourself in the moments where things aren't working and find that sense of, I don't know, like self-forgiveness or whatever that is. Like my parents, are incredibly loving. They didn't care where I went to college. They never bothered me about my grades. They just wanted me to enjoy myself. And even today, you ask my parents, what do they want from me? And they just say, for you to be happy and healthy. That's all that they want. So for me, I'm like, I think positive reinforcement as a child probably added to it of being like, oh, I'm making my family happy or whatever that is, um, you know, probably was part of it, but it was never, you know, I had no tiger parents. I had no older sibling that I was competing with. I had no, no someone who I was like, I was always trying to be just as good as them. And again, I think goes back to being in sports and, and that kind of like, oh no, no, you either you win or you lose. In life, there is a lot more than winning and losing. And I think, you know, it just took me some time to find that maturity and to come to an understanding of that. And then the second thing was, uh, I would always get frustrated with my therapist that, you know, about the idea of the narratives that we're telling ourself. Um, and she'd be like, Ria, that's a narrative. I'm like, then what's the truth?
Gowri: Because I'm telling myself this, what is the truth?
Ria: And so, It took me a while to understand what a narrative is and when I'm telling myself a narrative versus what is actually the reality. And so that was another big thing. The last thing for me was finding a way to be present in the now. And for me, that's something that came from journaling and it came from understanding you know, why I was leaving my mind in the past too much and recounting things that had or hadn't happened or worrying about what's going to happen in the future and not letting myself be in the present moment. And I think, I can't remember who had said this to me or where I'd read this, but it was like, you can't create core memories if you're not experiencing the present moment. Because if you're not experiencing what's happening to you, how in the hell are you going to remember it? If your mind is somewhere else, if you're thinking about what happened yesterday or what are you going to eat for lunch tomorrow, what are you going to do in your presentation, then you're going to forget the little moments of this cool conversation you've been having with this person next to you or experience with a family member or just being aware of yourself at that moment. And I think that for me, I was like, wow, I'm literally wasting my life worrying about the past or fretting about the future if I'm just not here right now where I am right now.
Gowri: It's clear how much you've gotten from this. And I think it's really also nice to hear because it can show up in different ways in our life, right? I feel like the self neglect that you're talking about is, you know, and being in the moment, that leads me to believe that to some degree, when you're sort of pushing when you're being a primary caregiver, when you're taking care of somebody who is ill, and there is that, you know, very much life or death kind of existential thing in front of you. And you have this, you know, I know, we're both Hindu, but like come to Jesus moment of Either I do this now or I don't, you know? You're right. And I think a lot of people can relate to that idea of like, must do this, must survive, must get there. There's no excuse for anything but success because there's so much riding. The stakes are, they feel so high, right? And to your point, is it a narrative that the stakes are high? Is it actually reality? Because how am I going to make money if I don't career or a job. So, you know, there's obviously truth to all of it in terms of, you know, to your question of what's real, what's the truth. Your experience of it can take a back seat because it can, you know, it ends up feeling and or being just not the priority at the time. You know, I work with people, you know, in their 80s, 90s who still haven't had the, you know, the chance to do that. to reflect back and to take a moment and pause, and pause in a way that feels more positive, right, compared to the pause you had to take when you were younger with photography and creative expression. This is a pause that feels more positive and that feels actually like it's making room for your whole self, which, you know, we talk about it, but as you got to realize at a very young age, being able to express yourself in that way can feel and can often be a luxury, a privilege. And it sounds like you took that very seriously and you wanted to make sure you did that justice, right? Is what it sounds like to me. It's like, hey, I've done this. My family supported me. I've been there for them. I'm embarking on this new endeavor. And what a shame, essentially, if I didn't actually get to live and enjoy what I'm doing moving forward after all this effort I've put in, you know? But that's what it really feels like to me.
Ria: Yeah. And there's something that you said where I was like, oh my gosh, this is its own form of a therapy session because the life and death stakes that I experienced when I was caregiving, how those kind of kind of carried through in my transformation into this new career. So while I was in those life and death stakes, I was also making massive changes in my life. And I think, I don't know, just hearing you talk about it, I was like, huh, I kind of wonder if that fear of survival and that life and death, that I kind of carried that those stakes into this other part of my life.
Gowri: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's almost impossible to not do that when you're so in the moment, right? Like to transfer that energy from one situation to another. Um, and, and it, and it kind of becomes like intertwined in that way. Right.
Ria: Yeah. And I think also when you give, you're giving up so much, like I, Look, a job is a job, okay? But when it was your first job and you were doing well and you had a career and a life. that was already moving. The train had left the station. I had to say, I'm going to take, get off of this incredible train and jump onto like a fricking invisible, like I'm literally building track. Like there's no even, there isn't even no station. There's no train at the station. I'm literally going to jump off this wonderful express train and I'm going to go to some rickety place and try to build my own railroad, train, and then try to run and learn how to, you know, be the train conductor. That was a lot of change. And I think that felt very scary. And so that feeling of life or death, like I just left what was life. And if I fail, I will have some form of death, like I think was very much also a part of what was going on with me at the time. Like, I'm honestly, I still am building the track. I am still fixing up this train. And I honestly don't really know how to drive it. It's all still a work in progress. And, but I mean, I think, you know, that's also one of the most lovely things I think people can have passions and there are things, there are types of huge, wonderful, incredible careers or passions that at a certain point you can't do because of your body, right? You can only be a competitive athlete for so long. But what I love is like, you know, filmmaking and being a writer and a director, particularly being a writer, It's a lifelong craft. And it's a beautiful thing, because we're also all growing and changing as we do that as well. And our understanding of the human condition changes. I mean, I think One thing my therapist told me once, she felt that the meaning of life was us understanding who we are. And that's the journey and the meaning of life is understand, hopefully by the end of our lives, we know who we are. And I thought that was a very beautiful thing and a nice thing to try to explore. But that's one of the things I like about having patients in at least a career I have, which I've now learned to have, is that hopefully this is, you know, decades and decades to come. I don't have to worry about, you know, my best years being behind me. which is a good thing.
Gowri: We could debate the meaning of life forever, to your therapist's point, but part of, I think, what we're talking about here is, you know, what you're saying is, hey, how can I find a sense of peace, a sense of calm? Your name is Rhea, like the soothing waterfall. Like, how can I find that flow almost in life? It makes me wonder, like, if you had to describe yourself now, like, how would you describe yourself?
Ria: Hmm. Well, first of all, I think I've gained more from this conversation than I think any of your podcast viewers or listeners will get because the thing you just said, like you asking me about what my name means at the beginning of this conversation and then bringing it back and me being like, oh my God, I am trying to be my namesake. Yeah. You know, I think I am trying to be my namesake. I am trying, to be a waterfall. And I think one of the things with waterfalls, right, the flow of water and it's trusting gravity and, and that's something about that is to trust, right? To trust yourself, to trust nature, to trust life. This lovely journey of life, which can be hard at times too, has brought me back where I was always maybe supposed to belong.
Gowri: Thanks so much for listening to Ria's story. We hope you enjoyed it and tune in for our fifth and final episode of season one next week. Sense of Self is a podcast from The Mission Entertainment. This episode was produced by Andrew Coles, Elizabeth Rose, Alison Keeley, and myself, Gowri Aragam. It was edited by Ben Montoya and mixed by Aja Simpson with music from Blue Dot Sessions.